TCTI: Too Crazy Too Ignore
 Dave Ross
texas cheerleaders kountze high slider crop - AP
Kountze High School cheerleaders create some of the football banners that prompted a complaint by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. (AP Photo/The Beaumont Enterprise, Dave Ryan)

Touchdown for God

October 19, 2012 @ 12:17 pm (Updated: 7:17 am - 10/20/12 )

In Hardin County, Texas, the cheerleaders of Kountze High School have prevailed.

A judge has granted an injunction allowing them to include Bible verses in their football banners.

"There's a reality here, and that is that the first amendment does not demand hostility toward religion," said Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott.

So the cheerleaders will be allowed to hold banners that read: "If God be for us, who can be against us" and "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me."

But it's not over. This is just an injunction. And the Freedom From Religion Foundation wants the case decided on the merits. They are determined to keep religious banners off the field.

"They are misusing their power that the school has conferred on them to proselytize," said Freedom From Religion co-founder Annie Laurie Gaylor. "If they were doing this as students in the bleachers holding up a sign, that would be one thing, but they're out there on the field and they represent the school."

So religious banners in the stands are fine, according to Gaylor, but not on the field.

Two things on that: number one, there appears to have been exactly one complaint. The banners have long been part of the local culture.

And number two: Kountze High does have a pretty good football team. Last week they trounced Warren High 48-0.

Now, that success may be due to coaching, recruiting, or the direction of the wind that day, but you have to at least entertain the possibility there are games that God helps them win provided he gets a mention on the playing field.

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Comments (58)


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  • ron prevost wrote...
    .
    October 20, 2012 6:48 am
    .
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  • ron prevost wrote...
    However, in a supplemental ruling, the judge.........
    October 20, 2012 7:03 am
    required that the signs MUST read John 3:16 and the cheerleaders MUST sport rainbow died afros.

    Assuming this is a public high school, I must agree with Ms Gaylor. Free speech is by individuals and private organizations (INCLUDING churches) BUT expressed as such. ... Once the cheerleaders are on the field and act as representatives of the school, the signs must go. They wouldn't be some quick emotional thing like a Tebow, but planned and organized by official (such as cheerleaders are) representatives of a public school.

    Oh, and guess what. God does not need the State to pass along His word. Especially if that team starts to lose.

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  • The King's Son wrote...
    I don't get
    October 20, 2012 8:51 am
    this crusade against Christianity. You think that high school cheerleaders holding signs with Bible verses on them is some sort of egregious injustice? Take a step back and realize that you're TRYING TO GET HIGH SCHOOL CHEERLEADERS TO STOP HOLDING SIGNS WITH BIBLE VERSES ON THEM. Grow up a little bit and think about the fact that there was one complaint about the issue and that in Hardin county, Texas this practice is completely acceptable. Don't think so much of yourself so as to convince yourself that you have the right to limit the religious freedom and freedom of expression of the HIGH SCHOOL CHEERLEADERS because you disagree with them. Gross....
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  • rational wrote...
    ron prevost
    October 20, 2012 10:59 am
    So what you're saying is the cheerleaders are a proxy for congress and they are fabricated laws!?

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

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  • ron prevost wrote...
    Yes, rational. I know. But this reverts to case law, rather that the Constitution.
    October 20, 2012 5:05 pm
    Texas likely has something similar, prohibiting religious statements by any public representative.

    BUT I was talking today and the question came up: 'If people can be prohibited from making pro-religious statements on school grounds, can people also be barred from making ANTI religious statements? '

    To the best of my knowledge - which is limited at best - I don't think the Supreme Court has ever addressed that question. ... But that would open a whole new can of worms.

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  • rational wrote...
    ron prevost
    October 20, 2012 7:32 pm
    But this reverts to case law, rather that the Constitution.

    I would submit there is a problem when case law superceeds the constitution.

    and you ask a good question regarding speaking against religion on public property...I wonder if the left is willing to give up their rights as readily as they are willing to take them away from others.

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  • Forrest wrote...
    Yeah but,
    October 20, 2012 7:03 am
    What if both side have "If God be for us, who can be against us" written on their banners? Kind of sounds like the Christians and Jews fighting the Muslims in the Middle East, one of the sides is going to be disappointed. Who's side is God on if both sides are true believers? Just maybe both are delusional.
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  • ron prevost wrote...
    Happens, Forrest. In WWI ALL of the armies march to war
    October 20, 2012 7:08 am
    under banners saying 'God is on our side'. ... More likely, as Napoleon said, "God is on the side of the big battalions." ... Or the strongest defensive line ?
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  • messiah101 wrote...
    Forrest
    October 20, 2012 9:27 am
    And the Right wonders why we on the Left are doing everything in our power to prevent these LUNATICS from holding political office.GO DEMONs
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  • rational wrote...
    Forrest
    October 20, 2012 11:01 am
    Kind of sounds like the Christians and Jews fighting the Muslims in the Middle East...

    You are creating a non-Biblical interpretation and then trying to build an argument based upon your faulty assumption. Can you see how that might not be a good idea?

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  • Forrest wrote...
    No Rational I can't.
    October 20, 2012 1:48 pm
    Both sides believe they have God on their side. It's just that simple. One side for sure is going to be disappointed eventually and probably both side will be. If we only had magic underwear, we could get rid of evil everywhere.
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  • rational wrote...
    Forrest
    October 20, 2012 3:48 pm
    Why doesn't it surprise me to see you admit you don't see the problem with basing arguments on a faulty assumption?

    I could explain it further to you, but it doesn't seem likely to be worth the effort given your admitted inability to grasp basic logic. I'll just go with...have a good life.

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  • spuddog wrote...
    I'm pretty sure...
    October 20, 2012 9:04 am
    that if this goes to a federal court (don't know what the Texas state constitution says about the state and religion), that the judge's injunction will get tossed. The state must be neutral in terms of religion, neither supporting it nor being hostile toward it. I don't see how anyone can argue that at a school sponsored event, on school property, with cheerleaders who are acting as representatives of the school that this is not showing support for religion. It doesn't matter if there was one complaint or a million complaints. These banners clearly violate the establihment clause of the 1st Amendment. Now if kids in the stands want to hold up these banners...different story.
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  • messiah101 wrote...
    But when they LOSE a game
    October 20, 2012 9:26 am
    Does that mean that God is pissed at them?Do these signs give them an advantage over other High School teams with nick names like Sun Devils,Blue Devils Demons,,False Prophets, Muhammad's,Hindus,or the powerhouse Budda's?If they are Beaten by the Demons does that mean God LOST and the Demons WON?Just looking for a bit of clarification
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  • ron prevost wrote...
    messiah, at least for the World Series, it all depends on how God feels - and which religious figure you are.
    October 20, 2012 10:01 am
    But, see. It's like jai lai. God beis right and wind either way. ... Since 1980, Louis (the Saint) has played in 5 and won 2. .. BUT Diego (also a saint) lost both that he it played. But Francisco usually holds his own.

    Come to think of it, San Diego just can't win for loosing. Maybe the Padres nick name is over kill.

    .

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  • rational wrote...
    spuddog
    October 20, 2012 11:06 am
    The state must be neutral in terms of religion, neither supporting it nor being hostile toward it. I don't see how anyone can argue that at a school sponsored event, on school property, with cheerleaders who are acting as representatives of the school that this is not showing support for religion.,

    Firstly, you make a faulty claim...I posted the text of the 1st ammendment for Ron just a few mins ago in case you need to refresh yourself on it. The 1st ammendment applies to congress making laws. Cheerleaders are not congress, nor are they creating laws. There is no real limitation other than the fabrications created by the left that precludes citizens from expressing religious sentiments on public property.

    These banners clearly violate the establihment clause of the 1st Amendment.

    They absolutely do not until you prove these students are members of congress and holding a banner is the same as passing a law.

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  • spuddog wrote...
    rational in reply to spuddog...
    October 21, 2012 6:59 am
    rational, your lack of understanding of establishment clause cases as they relate to schools is laughable. There are real limitations on religious expression at school sponsored events (in the classroom, in assemblies, at graduation ceremonies for example) and they weren't created by the left. They were imposed by the U.S. Supreme Court over a number of years and by a series of cases. Do your homework.
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  • rational wrote...
    spuddog
    October 21, 2012 11:36 am
    I understand the Supreme court's role in creating precidents...and just where do you think supreme court justices come from? Are you aware that they are appointed by democrat and repbulican presidents? Do you think they are all 100% unbiased? Do you believe they are infallible? Think.
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  • shark75 wrote...
    messiah101 wrote...
    October 20, 2012 9:49 am
    I actually agree with you about when they lose a game. I'll see you next year protesting the gay pride parade. There's no difference... Gays die from AIDS.
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  • messiah101 wrote...
    shark75
    October 20, 2012 12:01 pm
    Nope Gays don't die from Aids any longer.The Gays were pro active and got the government and pharmaceutical companies in motion to find the drugs needed to combat this horrible disease.Now if your HIV + you can still live a extended life span.Sorry to burst your HATE BUBBLE Sharky
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  • Milred wrote...
    Really?
    October 20, 2012 12:38 pm
    "...but you have to at least entertain the possibility there are games that God helps them win provided he gets a mention on the playing field." According to the UN, 24,000 children, under the age of 5, die per day. They die in pain and misery sometimes in their parents arms, often without. It’s been said before, if there is a god, he better have a dam good excuse.
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  • rational wrote...
    Milred
    October 20, 2012 1:27 pm
    Way to place yourself in judgment of God there.

    I've heard a little story based upon your judging of God...a man stands before God and challenges him as to why He allowed children to starve and God's response was he put that man (and others) on earth to do something about it...and the man had done nothing.

    That story is simplistic as well, in truth. I would simply say you fail to have sufficient perspective and knowledge to judge God.

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  • Milred wrote...
    Rational
    October 20, 2012 2:02 pm
    I have insufficient knowledge to judge God? But you apparently do?? What knowledge do you possess that I don’t? Yes god's little test...such a loving god you have there Rational.
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  • rational wrote...
    Milred
    October 20, 2012 3:48 pm
    No, I don't have sufficient knowledge and perspective to judge God either. The only difference between us on that account is I realize it.

    And no, I'm not looking for your money...you can keep it.

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  • Milred wrote...
    Rational
    October 20, 2012 9:28 pm
    2000 years and neither of us have knowledge nor perspective. You want to wish that god exists, I say give me the evidence. You have plenty of wishes, I have absolutely no evidence. I don't get your money comment.
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  • rational wrote...
    Milred
    October 21, 2012 12:50 am
    You claim to have intimate knowledge of my wishes...do tell...are you psychic?

    You're just attempting to change the discussion because you've failed in your first efforts. Pretty sad. I've simply stated that you have insufficent knoweldge and perspective to judge God. Do you deny that or do you claim to being omniscient?

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  • hedujg26 wrote...
    No, you don't get it, do you....
    October 20, 2012 12:52 pm
    It isn't a war on christianity. No one is letting, nor would they allow, Jewish cheerleaders, or cheerleaders with Islamic quotes. what it is is standing up for the right to not have religion forced upon people by a government entity, which is exactly what a public school is. Who cares what they do in Texas? have the southern states still have sodomy laws and would have Jim Crow laws if the government hadn't stepped in. You don't understand because you don't want to. No body wants to limit speech, but no one wants to be preached to also. Its a public school, respect the public's rights.
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  • The King's Son wrote...
    And I think what you're not getting...
    October 20, 2012 7:39 pm
    ...is that they're cheerleaders. I'm not saying that the school officials should should hang banners from the school rafters with the gospel message on them. I'm saying you're an intolerant person who disguises (maybe even from yourself) your dislike of Christianity behind a facade of self-righteousness. "...forced upon people by a government entity"? Are you seriously saying that cheerleaders holding up signs at a football is the man forcing its views on the poor, will-less, gullibles in the stands?? Are you kidding me? I'm sorry, but even the most liberal among you must see how childish this is...
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  • hedujg26 wrote...
    No, rational, precedent is established..
    October 20, 2012 1:02 pm
    Just as there will be no laws establishing a religion, allowing a government entity to let a group representing them endorse a religion does exactly that. Whine as much as you want about "fabrications of the left" and such garbage, precedent has been set by the courts repeatedly in this situation. There is no limiting free speech when it is on your time, say what yo want. But when representing government, you don't get a free pass, nor should you. Imagine it a case of conflict of interest. You can believe in your God, but you don't get to use your postion of governmental power to endorse it. Simple as that.
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  • rational wrote...
    hedujg26
    October 20, 2012 1:21 pm
    Slice it any way you want, but cheerleaders are not congress...the precedent that is established is a partical destruction of the constitution, not a clarification of it.

    Fabrication is fabrication, deny the truth if you wish. You can believe in your God, but you don't get to use your postion of governmental power to endorse it. Simple as that.

    So what you're saying is the founding fathers didn't understand their own intent when they declared days of prayer and held prayer meetings in government buildings? Sorry, but the truth is the judiciary has progressively discarded the constitution.

    Personally, I don't care if they use banners or not, what I do care about is truth and facts.

    The simple truth is, these cheerleaders are not congress nor are they passing any laws.

    What about the converse then...why do you believe the judiciary has the authority to deny citizens their 1st ammendment rights because they are on public property? By allowing this violation of the constitution you undermine the entire document...and the validity of the federal government itself...assuming you give enough time for the same judges to continue their progressive elimination of the consitutition...they're not at the end result yet.

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  • The King's Son wrote...
    You keep making this assumption...
    October 20, 2012 7:42 pm
    ...that the cheerleaders are some kind of extension of the government. And that by them holding signs, the government is directly endorsing Christianity. These cheerleaders are not employed by the government. In fact, if this school is like any school I've ever seen, the cheerleaders have to pay money to be involved in the cheerleading program. They are private citizens exercising their right to free speech and you simply don't like what they have to say. So childish...
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  • spuddog wrote...
    King's Son...
    October 21, 2012 10:00 am
    you've twice referred to posters who have made accurate arguments as "childish". If that's what you think then you are ignorant. And before you respond, go online and spend five minutes researching U.S. Supreme Court cases that have interpreted the establishment clause as it relates to school activities. Do it. Educate yourself and then respond.
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  • cdbtx wrote...
    Now if I were
    October 20, 2012 1:15 pm
    to have to make a choice between a neighbor or a friend or a collegue or a teacher or a boss or a politician... guess anyone for that matter that chose to display a sign that read John 3:16 and say a liberal blogger that thought he was God and all those on earth should bow to his wisdow and live not how he lives but how he dictates.. hmmmm who would I chose

    And if I had to judge someone by their actions - do you think the 15yo holding the sign or the liberal blogger has performed more good acts to benefit and help society?

    And if I were in need of say a dollar - do you think the 15yo cheerleader or the Liberal would give it to me

    If the 15yo cheerleader and the liberal saw someone being attacked on the street - which one do you think would most likely come to their aid?

    Think I'll hang out with those holding the John 3:16 signs... might not agree with their religion, but life's much more pleasant when you're around hope verses hate.

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  • GoldFish wrote...
    Messiah 101
    October 20, 2012 1:43 pm
    Do you pretend to be stupid or are you actually just plain dumb? I have been pondering this for some time now.
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  • William Lawn wrote...
    Goldfish, if you have been pondering that for some time now
    October 20, 2012 1:52 pm
    You shouldn't be asking him.

    You SHOULD ask yourself, however.

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  • William Lawn wrote...
    Isn't religion strange?
    October 20, 2012 1:51 pm
    A bunch of teenie bobbers invoking the guy in the sky to get a leg up in a high school football game.

    Funny though.

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  • rational wrote...
    William Lawn
    October 20, 2012 3:50 pm
    Is that really any stranger than a bunch of folks getting all upset that people don't believe as they do and mock those "tennie bobbers"?
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  • circuitfr wrote...
    I despise case law...
    October 22, 2012 7:05 am
    I'm so glad we forget about the constitution and base all our laws off liberal or conservative judges "interpreting" the constitution how they see fit. See = Commerce Clause as a great example of abuse. Common sense = a public official, governor, elected, paid staffer should not be able to use religion in that aspect. I get that. No problem with that. Not Common sense = telling a high school football game they can make a sign. What the heck? Are you then going to ban the group of football players who want to pray after the game together? People equate winning as good and losing as bad. A lot of these players believe it or not do appreciate the other team and the battle they fight on the field and have mutual respect. It's OK to lose gracefully. Most of life's important lessons comes from losing. Saying God isn't with one team is a pretty juvenile statement to advance your insecurities.
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