TCTI: Too Crazy Too Ignore
 Dave Ross
students computer
Hira says if tech companies really wanted American workers, companies could find them. "Enrollments are up in computer science. Enrollments are up in engineering." (AP Photo/File)

Made in America but not by Americans

BY Dave Ross  on February 1, 2013 @ 8:06 am (Updated: 10:56 am - 2/1/13 )

Part of the new immigration compromise in the Senate would allow as many as 300,000 additional foreign hi-tech workers to come to America and take high paying jobs at companies like Google and Microsoft - with salaries up to 100,000 a year.

Companies say they just can't find Americans with the right skills, which is why they need more of these H1B visas - as they're called.

But Dr. Ron Hira of the Rochester Institute of Technology and an expert on outsourcing says there's no skill gap. It's just that some tech companies are determined to depress wages.

Hira says if tech companies really wanted American workers, companies could find them. "Enrollments are up in computer science. Enrollments are up in engineering," he says.

So I called up the University of Washington and talked to Ed Lazowska who is not only a Professor of Computer Science - he's the Bill and Melinda Gates professor of computer science. He tells a different story.

In the current decade, "There will be 1.3 million available jobs in computer science. The number of graduates qualified for those jobs, produced by American universities is about half that number."

So Lazowska says there is in fact a shortage, and if we don't put more money into our computer science departments there will be an even bigger shortage.

"In my program at the University of Washington, we have to turn away about two-thirds of the students who want to major in computer science," says Lazowska.

But here's the good news.

According to Lazowska, "A student this year who has been doing well in high school and applies to the University of Washington, and heads to the computer science program can be doing an internship at Microsoft or Amazon or Google within year."

No matter which version of the immigration bill passes.

Dave Ross, KIRO Radio Talk Show Host
Dave Ross is co-host of The Ross & Burbank Show on KIRO Radio (weekdays 9-Noon) and never too far from the spotlight.
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  • Chuck Gould wrote...
    How do they teach math these days?
    February 1, 2013 8:58 am
    Back when I was in elementary school (shortly after Roman numerals were invented) we learned math the traditional way. I did pretty well in math. Not an "A" student all the time, but for a guy with more of a verbal than spatial intellect I managed really well.

    The wheels came off in Jr. High. The "new math" was introduced. Somehow or another somebody confused me with the brighter kids, and I got assigned to the most bizarre math class imaginable. None of it made sense. Looking back on it now, I realize it didn't make any sense to the teacher, either. I got caught up in a "grand experiment", collateral damage while somebody in an ivory tower tinkered around with centuries of proven process. I lost interest in math, grudgingly plodding through Geometry with maybe a C-plus average. (It's OK, I get through life just fine with addition, subtraction, multiplication, and long division- all of which I learned by sixth grade).

    Point being: We should take a look at how math is taught by schools in India, or other countries exporting huge numbers of software engineers to the United States. Perhaps they have a more effective way of teaching math. Or, (also quite likely), the students actually buckle down and study harder than our coddled and distracted American teenagers.

    If there is a legitimate need for these foreign workers, then by all means we should bring them in. However, if there is a legitimate need and we don't take some steps to educate our youth to take these jobs with six-figure salaries that will ultimately be our own stupid fault.

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  • dem3 wrote...
    Apparently math is not taught well at all
    February 3, 2013 7:03 pm
    Ed Lazowska, Chair of the UW Computer Science department says 1.3 million computer science jobs will be available over ten years. Thus, Congress will provide 300,000 x 10 or 3 million temporary H-1B visas to fill these 1.3 million jobs. Congress will also provide an unlimited number of residency visas to any STEM grad student of any US university. Last fall, this was to be set at 55,000 but Congress now proposes an unlimited number. Let's 100,000 per year of which perhaps 25,000 may end up being computer science or software engineering or related subjects. That adds an additional 250,000 to the 3 million total. Got that? We need to fill 1.3 million jobs so the US will import 3.25 million workers from abroad. What could possibly go wrong? Second, Ed Lazowska will directly benefit from the unlimited STEM grad students visa and he is not an unbiased participant in this subject.
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  • Lonestar wrote...
    So if you major in computer science at UW
    February 1, 2013 9:04 am
    You are qualified to work for free at Microsoft?
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  • KenTi wrote...
    Don't believe the hype
    February 1, 2013 9:05 am
    My background: Almost 19 years as an employee of Microsoft in Support, Test and then Development. My performance prior to being pushed out of the company: 3.7 average review score (back then, 5 was good, 1 was poor) Reason for departure: Poor Performance review in year 18. I actually fought to stay there but after year 15, it went downhill because they pushed harder and harder until they finally succeeded. "Companies say they just can't find Americans with the right skills" is totally inaccurate. Why don't you look at ethnicity / citizenship of people hired and fired over the last 8 years and it will tell you a bigger story. (Good luck at trying to get that information.)
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  • Debbi (1) wrote...
    Aged Out
    February 3, 2013 10:06 am
    Aging out is an open-secret at Microsoft. I've had six acquaintances with solid performance similar to yours all of a sudden labeled as "non-performing" and pushed out. The replacement employee, often an H-1B, comes in at a lower level/lower salary. I hope you had an attorney negotiate the terms of your separation agreement.
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  • KenTi wrote...
    The injustice of justice
    February 4, 2013 10:34 am
    Yeah, right. My "separation agreement" was that I would walk out of the building peacefully. After a little over $10,000 and a lawyer, which took three months to find, that would even take the case, King County Superior Court decided there wasn't enough evidence to go to trial.
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  • Cyl wrote...
    To: Don't believe the hype
    February 3, 2013 6:12 pm
    I totally back you up 100% on your story. It is so true but politicians are sold on this gimmick. We have a lot of people perfectly competent and speaking PERFECT English and they are getting fired for no reason, other than the people inside are bringing their own from India. I have friends that have this facts first hand. Politicians as well as employers are just playing a game where American citizens are the losers. we need to stand up and Unite against politicians and Microsoft's unfairness. stop bringing H1B visa workers!
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  • ron prevost wrote...
    There is something I just don't like about giving special consideration to foreign elete workers.
    February 1, 2013 9:35 am
    Unlike most undocumented workers - whom I welcome - it's these people who will take the jobs that Americans DO WANT. While a case can be made that such people (doctors, engineers, etc.) train in America, I find it hard to believe enough Americans can't be trained as doctors and engineers. ... This smacks of the same 'social diversity' approach to current legal immigration that 'recruits' Ukranians and Somalis who otherwise never had a great desire to come to America, while ignoring vast numbers just across out borders.

    During our colonial days, and for the first 100 years of our existence as a nation, immigration was a matter of find the money for passage, or walk across the border. Then came the exclusions and quotas and we have been having problems ever since.

    But an Indian doctor may have grand children on welfare and the son or daughter of a fruit picker may some day win a Nobel prize. ... Social engineering can pick and chose - but there are no guarantees.

    Better we open our immigration to those who really want to come here - and let the cream rise to the top. As has always been the history of this nation of immigrants.

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  • logical open mind wrote...
    Ron, why do u welcome undocumented workers? Is California a exceptional, fiscaly balanced state.
    February 1, 2013 5:11 pm
    Farm labor, fruit picking do not pay enough. They can get illegals to work for peanuts. Is this a way to run a economy? Also, our welfare state makes working not cost effective. PS Dont think these illegals are all on the up and up and dont use a tremendous amount of gov entitlements. Our immigrants should be skilled and literate.
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  • ron prevost wrote...
    So, logically, we should have never let 95% of
    February 3, 2013 4:33 am
    the Irish fleeing famine - or Jews fleeing oppression - or Italians, or whoever in?

    Perhaps our immigration should have been limited to 'skilled and literate' English. ... Of course, then, the greatest nation on earth might now be Canada of some other place more concerned with future worth than restrictions.

    .

    BTW - Isn't it the entitlements that are the problem? Not the 'illegals'? ... And don't excessive entitlements (translation : welfare) sap the incentive of native born Americas as well ???????

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  • logical open mind wrote...
    Ron-the straw man arguement is that something tbhat happened 100 years ago should be allowed to happen today.
    February 4, 2013 8:38 am
    The uS needed workers during the Irish imigration and most work was unskilled. Today we have 330 million people, a global economy and less need for unskilled workers. Times change man. And guess what, 100 years from now, the things we are doing today will make no sense in 2113 AD. Duh!
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  • SeattleNative wrote...
    Rise of the Welfare State; changes in morality
    February 1, 2013 9:38 am
    It was only two generations ago that the U.S. led the world in math & sciences.

    Today, with the government set up to pay women to have babies out of wedlock, we're raising classrooms full of kids who have minimal parental guidance and generally low expectations at home.

    I'm not saying that's the case in every single-parent household. But we are definitely more likely to have underachieving children in single-parent rather in two-parent households. Support slips through the cracks.

    In an entitlement society where little is expected in the way of achievement and personal responsibility, little is returned.

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  • Chuck Gould wrote...
    While the Indian teenagers are studying 6 hours a night...
    February 1, 2013 10:28 am
    to land a job creating the future of technology, American teenagers are spending 6 hours a night playing XBOX games based on the last generation of technology.

    May have something to do with why we are (at least allegedly) behind in math and science.

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  • mnpat wrote...
    Chuck.....
    February 1, 2013 10:58 am
    XBOX and phone/twitter crud as well.
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  • logical open mind wrote...
    chuck-please admit that the single mom welfare society does not produce performers.
    February 1, 2013 5:07 pm
    yes-I know there are exceptions but the numbers speak loudly.
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  • maplefish wrote...
    Chuck
    February 2, 2013 10:56 pm
    Yes, they do, but the liberal moron parents that have spawned these lazy, entitled, self-absobed, X-box addicted morons keep telling these teenagers that they are victims and its not their fault they can't succeed. And then Obama compounds these lazy failure excuses by making pathetic speeches saying: "if you own a small business, you didn't build that" or "Rich folks need to pay their fare share" or "everybody deserves a fair chance".... The stupidity of the Progressive Liberal agenda excuses and incentives FAILURE and then blames the wealthy for the Failure of the lazy, self-absorbed, teenage idiots..,,
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  • Chuck Gould wrote...
    Golly, Maplefish
    February 3, 2013 7:36 am
    I wasn't aware that kids from conservative families don't play video games, tweet, text, or what not. With the number of video game devices in circulation in the US at least equal to the number of teenagers in the population, I guess there can't be that many conservative families? Too bad, we could use a few more conservatives- they help balance perspective.

    We know that adults in conservative families are well dialed in to technology. Several of them hang out on these forums, posting nothing but personal attacks against those whom they feel are not conservative enough, or trying to turn every topic into a referendum on Obama, liberalism, welfare, or the other topics they love to hate.

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  • maplefish wrote...
    I don't hate
    February 3, 2013 9:06 am
    I'm just tired of the "government will take care of us" that the majority if people in this country seem to have adapted.... And you don't need to be smart to own a smart phone....or especially an Obama Phone!
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  • rational wrote...
    "new math"
    February 1, 2013 4:37 pm
    I suspect we're in roughly the same age range. I remember when they introduced "new math" when I was in 7th grade. On one occassion I asked the teacher a question and his response was that he couldn't answer the question because he didn't understand the new math way of solving the problem. It took quite a few years to overcome the poor education provided by public schools because of their grand experiments. Now I'm afraid to try to help my son with his math because the methods I know to solve the problems are not the same the current curriculum teaches.

    As for the topic of H1B visas...I worked at a company that hired a programmer that required an H1B visa. My impression was the reason was both the person was willing to work for less as well as her work ethic was greater than the typical American applicant.

    That is anecdotal, but I suspect that some level of those 2 issues are playing into the requests for more H1B visas.

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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    The reason more people are on welfare (if you include food stamps) is because more
    February 1, 2013 9:48 pm
    people fit in to the category of the working poor. In the late 60s the minimum wage would be $11 in today's time. Not everybody can be a scientist and every job has dignity. People don't think like that anymore. We need janitors, why do we always hate on them and act as if they don't deserve to make a decent wage? And since they don't they must be too stupid. What is the point of denigrating the working poor? If you're not going to pay people enough to eat then of course they're going to apply for food stamps. I can't fathom making it on minimum wage and I feel sorry for anybody that has too.
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  • logical open mind wrote...
    who hates janitors? what jobs pay min wage? fast foods pay more than min.
    February 2, 2013 6:05 pm
    however, in the new global economy one shouldn't expect to make very much doing unskilled labor. Face it libs, the world has changed from the 50's.
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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    there are only 2 options
    February 2, 2013 7:02 pm
    As a society we say that being a janitor, or a maid, or, a gardener, or a field worker or any other low paying job, is not "good enough" and anybody who works in one of those types of jobs is too stupid, too lazy, too whatever to deserve any kind of consideration and we let them suffer hunger, disease and poverty...or...we value their work as necessary for a functioning society and we don't let them suffer poverty, disease, etc. Life is very hard as a low wage earner and it doesn't mean people are lazy. Some of the lowest income earners are the hardest workers. It's not that people go around saying "i hate janitors", but if you don't think the working poor get denigrated on this blog you are not paying close attention.
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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    And to the extent that Americans are "dependent on the government"
    February 1, 2013 9:54 pm
    Republican voters are taking a pretty good size chunk of the welfare pie. The US Dept. of Agriculture says that counties that got the fastest increase in food stamp aid voted Republican, including places like King County, Texas where 96% of the people voted for Romney. You're welcome...
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  • rational wrote...
    gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood
    February 2, 2013 10:03 am
    I suspect games with numbers there. You claim King County TX as the fastest increase in food stamps...so was it 5 people previously and now it's 10 so it's a 100% increase? When statists start quoting rates of change instead of total money used you can usually be sure they're playing games with the numbers. Look at the "cuts" the democrats keep offering...all they do is start with a baseline assuming huge increases, so then reduce the spending increase by just a little and claim they've cut spending. Smoke and mirrors.
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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    I used Texas because they are are a drain on America.
    February 2, 2013 1:30 pm
    Pick any of the 70% of Republican counties that had a faster increase in food stamp aid then the 30% of Democratic counties. Face it, the red states are a bunch of moochers. It's a good thing I'm a liberal and I don't mind helping out the less fortunate. Otherwise the red states would be in a whole heap of trouble.
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  • WiIliam Lawn wrote...
    you are a drain on society
    February 2, 2013 3:49 pm
    You and your whole liberal Ideology. Your whole religion of liberalism is based on entitlement, give me what I haven't earned, and have someone else pick up the tab. Your math is so flawed and manipulative. Like rational said, take 5 Republicans on food stamps and increase it to 10, you have 100% increase. Percentage increases aren't going to give you an accurate assessment without looking at the whole number. And since most welfare recipients are liberals, your not going to see a higher percentage increase. Your principles will be the economic death of this nation.
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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    oh so sorry, you must be from a blood sucking parasitic state
    February 2, 2013 4:29 pm
    That's why you are deflecting. Republicans shouldn't be on any kind of welfare because they're so freaking awesome, anyways, the numbers should not be going up because your people should nut up and not accept any help out of principle. Otherwise that makes your party a bunch of hypocritical wussies.
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  • WiIliam Lawn wrote...
    no, I'm from am American state
    February 2, 2013 4:35 pm
    You're ideology works great, until you run out of other peoples money. Keep draining on society until there's nothing left.
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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    ah, now we are all one America, hey?
    February 2, 2013 5:23 pm
    Well, in this America we help people when they are struggling. We don't assume the worst about our fellow citizens. We understand that there are circumstances that require us to get assistance like food stamps, like unemployment, like welfare. We don't define people by those who take advantage of the system. And we are not a bunch of nay sayers or chicken littles.
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  • rational wrote...
    gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood
    February 2, 2013 6:40 pm
    Republicans shouldn't be on any kind of welfare because they're so freaking awesome, anyways...

    Another fine example of progressive double standards there. You seem confused, however. The difference isn't really republican/democrat, it's classic liberal/progressive (statist). The crux isn't the political party, the crux is rather one believes in an all powerful, totalitarian government or not...and statists like you ultimately do. There are plenty of republican statists as well. Some folks call them RINO's, although they really are republicans...just the sort that love big government and are against freedom. Almost all democrats have moved into the big government camp.

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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    big government, right
    February 2, 2013 7:35 pm
    you're not one of those are you? Ooh, they're taking our guns, they're taking our rights, they're taking our freedoms, they're reading our thoughts and brainwashing us. Pretty soon we'll all be living on government bread, saying Heil Obama and getting forced abortions. Pah...leaze. We are plenty free. What I'm talking about is whether or not we're going to be the kind of society that turns a blind eye to the plight of the less fortunate amongst us. Like they do in every third world country. I was being ironic.
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  • rational wrote...
    gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood
    February 2, 2013 8:37 pm
    Nice strawman...progressives really love those false arguments. One of "those"? Not sure what a those is. Taking freedoms/rights...oh yea...try to find one thing the government doesn't have a finger into. Reading minds? There's part of your strawman...I haven't seen anyone suggesting such is happening, and if there were it has no correlation to the reality of government encrochment on our freedoms.

    As far as living on gov't bread...perhaps you've missed the "success" rate of the food stamp president...between unemployement, food stamps and all of the other thousands of programs a sizeable portion of the population is on gov't bread. You're not one of the deniers, are you?!

    As for your strawman of turning a blind eye...nice bogus line there...do you progressives practice these bogus arguments in front of mirrors before posting online? So in your mind the only possible options is the government takes care of people or they starve to death?

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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    nice try
    February 2, 2013 9:09 pm
    At any given moment a maximum of 15% of people are on food stamps, that leaves 85% of people who are not. The average benefit is $132 and I know people who qualify for less than $30 because they work full time. People are not living on government cheese. With the price of food very few people are getting fat on your dime. I like how you think every benefit pays for food, what about rent, what about clothes, what about medical expenses and everything else? You have some cahones talking smack to me about strawman arguments in the same post you accuse me of thinking that in my mind if the government doesn't take care of the people they starve. I never said that or anything of the kind. I do believe people should get help when they need it. Period. I think you are getting too emotional, most conservatives due when they can't explain their position. Take a chill pill dude. America is still a very free country.
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  • rational wrote...
    gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood
    February 3, 2013 12:50 am
    Do you really believe that food stamps is the only government program that provides food and support? Again you attempt to foist a dishonest argument. Yes, food stamps is roughly 15%...now keep adding all the other programs as well. I stated a "sizeable portion"...even 15% is sizeable out of over 300 million, and that's only a sinle program out of thousands.

    And I never suggested folks were getting fat...another straw man of yours. you are rife with them.

    And calling you out on a falacious argument is not a straw man...go look it up.

    Nice projection...it is progressives who make many arguments from the stance of appeal to emotion. You claim America is still very free...all that means is you're not uncomfortable with your chains.

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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    Conservatives love to cherry pick their information.
    February 3, 2013 8:10 am
    Yes, 15% is a sizeable number, but if the average benefit is $132 your hysterical argument that we're living on government bread doesn't hold water. Anyways, SNAP is a means tested program designed to grow as needed and shrink as not. The biggest whopper conservatives tell themselves about any kind of welfare is that a significant portion of the population wants to be on welfare. If that were true then the unemployment number would not have dropped to 4.2% during the Clinton years. Most people want to work. I like working. I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I stayed home all day. Everyone I know works. I did have a friend who was out of work for two years, but she must have filled out 300 applications. Conservatives are such nay sayers and negative nellies. People are good, the government is okay, we're not on our way to Socialism, every society has losers and we are not in chains.
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  • rational wrote...
    gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood
    February 2, 2013 6:36 pm
    So where are your statistics that it isn't the dems in the red states who are disproportionatly sucking up food stamps?

    And I doubt that you're a true liberal...seem to be a statist to me.

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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    i'm sorry, is statist an insult?
    February 2, 2013 7:49 pm
    I'm not sure you understand the word. Seriously, don't be glib. Plenty of Republicans get welfare. It doesn't matter to me whether they're conservatives or liberals. It's not like they have to show their voter registration card.
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  • rational wrote...
    gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood
    February 2, 2013 8:42 pm
    I am not intending statist as an insult...I'm attempting to correctly identify your ideology. It sure isn't liberal...at least in the classic sense, and to use it in another sense really does abuse to the meaning and origin of the word.

    I'm sure there are plenty of republicans on welfare...I'm just pointing out that the democrats lay claim to the poor...including the poor in red states. And it's the poor that are on welfare...hence if we give any credence to the democrat's claim then one must logically admit that many of the foodstamp reciepients in red states must actually be democrats. It is inconceivable that 100% of them are democrats, I'm sure there are republicans as well. But it's specious to argue about red states sucking up welfare if it's democrats who are doing the largest portion of that in red states.

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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    that's rich
    February 2, 2013 9:25 pm
    We're all statists to one degree or another. You sound libertarian, the craziest conservatives of all. A lack of a strong centralized federal government was already tried once under the Articles of Confederation and it was an utter disaster. I could care less how you define liberalism you don't sound like that deep a thinker, but I'm guessing you think you are. Only people who think they are intellectuals worry about defining ideologies. If it makes you feel good to define ideologies you go boy. To each their own.
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  • rational wrote...
    gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood
    February 3, 2013 12:44 am
    I would likely best be classified as a liberal...the classic meaning of the word, not the twisted one.

    And yes, I'm in favor of decentralizing back to within constitutional limits. yet again you try to play bait and switch...did I call for a shift back to the articles of confederation? Just within constitutional limits would be fine. I'm not an anarchist.

    And you seem quite confused if you think one is either an anarchist or a statist. Sorry, you're just not grasping reality if that's the case.

    As far as defining ideologies...that's pretty rich inasmuch as it's the progressives who tend to break down society into all their little factions which they then attempt to appeal to.

    You seem to think that if a words has a definition that all understand then that is bad. If words don't have actual meanings then you're just calling for a new version of the tower of Babel where no understanding is possible.

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  • gaymarriedchristianfromhollywood wrote...
    Ah...but that's the rub isn't it?
    February 3, 2013 7:29 am
    You don't seem to have faith in the system. You are in favor of "decentralizing back to within constitutional limits", but where has the federal government overstepped the boundaries of their authority? Uhmmm...never. Why? Because we have a system of checks and balances and ultimately a US Supreme Court that decides. But you and others like you don't like what has been decided, so you make up scary stories that you tell each other around a campfire about how the federal government is a scary monster coming to take away your liberties. As for your definition of "liberalism", I already said I'm not interested in your definition (not that you've defined it). You call yourself whatever you want, just stop acting like we're having a discussion on linguistic relativity.
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  • cdbtx wrote...
    I would estimate
    February 2, 2013 6:21 am
    out of the engineers that I hire... easily less than 20% are Americans... verything from work ethics.. knowledge... reasoning skills.. basic economics... Even then.. the Americans are typically from outside of Washington...

    There's a reality that eventually or hopefully will start hitting students in the head.. it's called.. "You're Not Entitled" to a job...

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  • Cyl wrote...
    To: cdbtx
    February 3, 2013 7:40 pm
    It really doesn't matter if the employees you hire are from out of state, what matters is that you do not hire from overseas (GET IT!) big difference. yeah, they are not entitled if they do not have the skills that's another story. We are talking about Americans that do have the skills and are not given the jobs. You should know, right.
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