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Heated debate: Does provocative dress invite rape?

BY Jamie Skorheim  on March 20, 2013 @ 9:01 am (Updated: 9:23 am - 3/20/13 )

The rape case in Steubenville has many talking about how such situations could be avoided, and what type of education or outreach might make such crimes less likely to occur. The issue of just who needs to be educated, among potential victims and potential rapists, sparked a heated debate on KIRO Radio's Ron and Don Show.

Host Don O'Neill began the conversation asking if at some point he should actually be telling his son straight out it's not OK to rape someone.

"Do you have to teach boys not to rape? Am I going to have to teach my son that some day?" asked Don.

"I think so," said co-host Ron Upshaw.

Producer Libby Denkmann said she thinks there needs to be a date rape curriculum in high school.

"I believe that there does need to be more clarity and more information out there about date rape and about where the line is, about people being intoxicated and not being able to consent."

Suggesting another potential area for education, Ron said parents might want to let girls know what message their clothes might be sending.

"Girls need to know that the way you appear does send a message."

This is where the fireworks really started.

"What you're saying right now is part of the culture or blaming the victim and putting that message out there is a problem," said Libby. "Putting a message out there that says you girls need to be aware of what you're wearing because you're inviting this, that is so inviting a culture of blaming the victim."

Ron said he's not blaming the victim, but dress is a choice and girls should be aware that the choice of what they wear might put them in a more vulnerable position. He elaborates with a choice he once had to make in regards to managing his own safety.

"Don and I, when we were living in New Orleans, were driving into a certain neighborhood, theoretically we should be able to go into any neighborhood we want in New Orleans, we lived there, we were residents of New Orleans," said Ron.

"I was told, 'Don't go into this neighborhood. You guys duck below the window of the car.' I had to be self aware enough to go, you know what, in America I should be able to go into whatever neighborhood I want, however, given this circumstance maybe I just recognize that it would be unwise of me to do this, so I didn't do it."

He said it's not about blaming the victim, it's about being aware of the risk and making a choice.

"There's an awareness. I was made aware of what my actions might do, so I had to weigh those and say, you know what, this is the choice I'm going to make," said Ron. "In the real world, there are consequences to the choices that we make, including how we choose to dress."

Libby said Ron's position is part of the problem.

"I so disagree with you on this Ron, and what you just said to me just shows that we need to do more education about the rape culture in this society."

What do you think?

Jamie Skorheim, MyNorthwest.com Editor
Whether it's floating on Green Lake, eating shrimp tacos at Agua Verde, or taking weekend drives out to the Cascades, she loves to enjoy the Pacific Northwest lifestyle as much as humanly possible.
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Comments (29)


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  • Moondoggie wrote...
    As God as my witness, I admit that I agree with Ron.
    March 20, 2013 8:48 am
    Please don't let any of my family or friends know about this. I promise that it doesn't happen very often.
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  • Moondoggie wrote...
    These guys need to go to jail because they are rapists,
    March 20, 2013 8:54 am
    but it is unlikely that they would have jumped out of the bushes and raped a fellow classmate as she walked home from school. A partygirl, passed out drunk on the bed, seems to be fair game for these rapists.
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  • froggy wrote...
    So evidently
    March 20, 2013 8:58 am
    every bikini worn on a beach is a signal to men that they should rape the girl wearing it. No? Then how could other clothing do that? It shouldn't.
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  • Oly80 wrote...
    that's a diversion statement, froggy...
    March 21, 2013 11:22 am
    it's not the same thing. people at pools, or at the beach are all there with the same sun-bathing/swimming mindset. keep the comparison equal. people wearing the garment that is called for at a place is fine, it's not the same as women dressing and revealing too much at work, at the club, at a party etc. IS IT? if you don't think so, you're kidding yourself and you're blind to reality.

    females dressing provocatively sends a message of that persons style/personality/character. if you don't believe this you are a fool. that's not a "blame the victim" statement. it's the truth. girls think certain things about guys when they wear certain clothes too.

    that's not to say that the BOYS ARE THE LOWEST FORM OF CREATURE for targeting an inebriated girl as their victim. they are. i doubt clothing choice played little part in their decision to commit their horrific act. they should be sterlized.

    but, the way a woman dresses IS a something to consider when it comes the image they send out. and maybe teaching them right from wrong dress isn't a horrible idea.

    i worry about anyone who immediately attacks anybody who says this, it seems like they're over-compensating for something. maybe they were a victim themselves. i don't know. i DO know that saying "hey, maybe girls shouldn't dress in overly-provocative ways and maybe we should teach them that" shouldn't be met with some femi-nazi sounding rant about "HOW DARE YOU BLAME THE VICTIM!!!" it's not trying to blame the victim. it's trying to help females AVOID being a victim. that's only ONE SIDE. we need to address the issues with the BOYS too.

    it doesn't make sense when women lose their minds like that and go after a dude who says maybe women should watch the way they dress. didn't their mom's teach them that already? why should the GUYS have to say this? and WHY should they be crucified when they do!? they're trying to HELP.

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  • Citizen of Krazy Town wrote...
    Oh man, there are so many layers to this issue
    March 20, 2013 10:25 am
    That even addressing the top two or three wouldn't get to the root of the problem.

    This is, on one hand a physical issue, on another a multi-level cultural issue, and on a third, a parenting issue. It is not appropriate, or even useful to have this addressed at school. You might as well spend two semesters going over the whole of the Revised Code of Washington.

    Physical: Teen boys are literally insane from hormones. They struggle to control emotional, sexual and aggression urges nearly every minute of the day. These physical realities are exacerbated by Culture: there is extreme pressure from peers and society on teen males to prove their manhood - be it through sports, sexual prowess, or general aggressive/abusive bad-asssed-ness - these things are reinforced by TV, Comic books, Video games, Music, Cinema and even more serious realities like inequality in the workplace, military and other "male" professions and even social circles.

    But these things are no excuse for rape or any other anti-social, violent and general criminal behavior. Because, as rational humans, we should be able navigate these negative influences if we have the proper tools to deal with them, and this is where parenting comes in: Our popular culture breeds and reinforces such a general disrespect for women, that we accept much of it as mainstream and allow it to infect our kids, unfiltered, at ages well before school age. This indoctrination can, and does, permanently disable kids, and especially boys, from recognizing and practicing healthy and respectful relationships with women.

    Take a recent pop fad: Gangnam Style. Except for the title of the song, the only other recognizable lyric is "Sexy Lady". Seems harmless, except little kids love this song and they are encouraged by moms and dads to shake their little booties and screach "sexy lady!" To the delight of the adults who don't even realize it establishes a gender perception dichotomy that will persist and grow as the kids get older. There are hundreds of pop songs and other "child friendly" media out there that accomplish the same thing and parents don't seem to be filtering it or at least augmenting it with the lesson that all people, and especially women, if you are a boy, need to be respected, not objectified or belittled through sexual innuendo and/or other belittling behaviors. And it really needs to be done beginning at two-three years old.

    Of course, when both parents work and the kiddos get dropped at daycare at 3 months old, there is little chance of that happening in many, many cases. Another layer to the problem...

    Do boys need to be taught not to rape? Yes. Because all other input they have is that sex is insignificant, without consequences and a badge of honor. All other input says that instant gratification is a right and every school is willing to help deal with STDs and abortion, but none of them want to touch the emotional impact of sex that teens are not mature enough to deal with. So, yes, they NEED to be told that it's not OK to view women as sex objects, it's NOT OK to demean women through words and actions, it's NOT OK to sexually force yourself onto a date or any female peer. And NO means NO. Boys need to be taught that a true sign of manhood is self-control, ability to set and achieve goals, compassion, charity and kindness. All the same things that are a true sign of womanhood. These messages need to start early, often, be reinforced by example, by mom and dad, starting at a very early age.

    Sorry for the soapbox!

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  • Oly80 wrote...
    crazy citizen...
    March 21, 2013 11:24 am
    well put. great post.
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  • birdy num num wrote...
    Inexcusable
    March 20, 2013 11:19 am
    Libby's points were right on point. I do not think Ron was very clear nor was he very good in allowing Libby to make her final statement. Talking about clothing is not the subject here, it is about violence and how to address how men are educated about rape. It has been documented that many rapes have happened to women who are NOT drunk or wearing clothes deemed as provocative. Kudos to Libby for making the bold statement that we need to teach this in high schools. As for Ron, fail...it was a reminder to turn off KIRO after Luke Burbank (actually maybe after the Dave and Linda AM show).
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  • Bubba wrote...
    Ron is so...
    March 20, 2013 11:20 am
    ...bassakward it isn't funny. I had to turn the radio off yesterday as Ron dug himself deeper and deeper into a hole with his outrageous comparisons. I'm not sure why I'm bothering to ask, but Ron: do you not know/understand that rape is a violent, brutal act that is all about control? The person who commented about bikini wearing females on the beach makes a good point. Bikinis don't leave much to the imagination; "suggestive" doesn't even begin to describe most of them. What about countries that have nude beaches? Wouldn't there be a lot of rapes in those places? After all, no clothes are more suggestive then a little bit of clothing, right Ron? And Don, your question about whether or not you should spell out for your son that rape is not okay...your actions and how YOU treat females will go a lot farther than any lecture or advice you give him. If your behavior allows him to believe that dominating another human being is okay, than that is how he is going to behave. If you teach him/show him how to treat humans, regardless of gender, with respect than he is more likely to model your behavior than not. Before anyone jumps in and tells me that these two morons in Stupidville don't necessarily have unfit parents, save your breath. I know that the best parent in the world can't guarantee that a moron adult doesn't emerge despite their best efforts.
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  • mnpat wrote...
    Suggest this study as reading for those that want to understand why the genders disagree. " She Dresses to Attract, He Perceives Seduction: "
    March 20, 2013 11:40 am
    This study investigates whether women and men differ in their attribution of intent for women's revealing appearance. It was hypothesized that women and men would indeed diverge in their ascriptions, such that men would view body-revealing clothing as conveying an interest in sexual exchanges on the part of the women so dressed, whereas women would reject this notion and point to a desire to feel and look attractive as the primary motivation for adopting this look. The results confirm this hypothesis. In all types of questioning, women did indeed identify the social, interpersonal, and personal advantage of such clothing in terms of attractiveness and desirability, as the primary reason for wearing it. This attribution pattern emerged from both the direct and projective inquiries, thus reinforcing its validity. Journal of International Women’s Studies Vol. 11 #4 May 2010 115
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  • Oly80 wrote...
    so...wait...
    March 21, 2013 1:58 pm
    what the study says, then, is that women dress provacatively to look and feel more attractive, right?

    men see it as the women putting themselves out there to be noticed in maybe a sexual way, right? which isn't ENTIRELY untrue, right? why show parts that we normally consider sexual when that's NOT your intention?

    i knew a lady who used to say "if it's not for sale, don't advertise."

    how is telling girls the equivalent of that "blaming the victim?" that's where libby sounds like a crazed femi-nazi. there's nothing wrong with telling females to dress professionally, or at least semi-modestly if they don't want to be seen in that light by others, OF BOTH GENDERS, by the way. women call other women s*uts more than men EVER do.

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  • Ted Jones wrote...
    As the father of a two year old girl...
    March 20, 2013 11:40 am
    I know that one day I may have to send my daughter back to her room to change into something potentially less revealing. That being said, I think there is a difference between attracting the wrong attention and being the victim of some perverts delight. Nothing my daughter wears should ever invite her to be attacked - ever. I dont think it makes a difference if shes in a trench coat or a cocktail dress, you never know what will set an attacker off. So to put the blame on the victims, it breaks my heart to think they have to ever even consider, "...somehow, this is my fault."
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  • EskieMom wrote...
    What I told my daughters
    March 20, 2013 12:09 pm
    I'm sure provocative dress encourages the thoughts rapists have; they're already unable to control their impulses, but when they rape it doesn't seem to matter what the woman is wearing. They even rape women in their 80's. However, what I taught my daughters as they were approaching their teens, still makes a lot of sense. I told them if they dressed like a sl-t and acted like a sl-t they would be treated as a sl-t, but if they dressed like a lady and acted like a lady they would be treated as a lady. I'm no saying this prevented them from being raped, but I think girls nowadays especially, dress provocatively to get the attention of boys, and not all boys are trustworthy. Apparently their parents think it's worth the risk. The word I used is not allowed, but you get the idea.
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  • Oly80 wrote...
    EskieMom...
    March 21, 2013 11:30 am
    THANK YOU!

    a mom that CLEARLY gets it!

    the sad thing is, MANY girls don't have a mom who attacks the situation like you. They let their little princesses dress to attract attention, like most girls want to in their teens, and they don't reel them in when needed.

    you're doing YOUR part.

    NOW we need to address the BOYS and bring back the notion of being the "good guy" the one who stands up for good things and being a GOOD PERSON. who would stop things like this from happening.

    it's NOT blaming the victim. it's PREVENTING the situation ALL TOGETHER.

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  • fisher wrote...
    Just be aware of your surroundings and where you're at.
    March 20, 2013 12:31 pm
    Can you wear a bikini at the beach without getting raped? Sure. Can you wear a bikini walking down the street at 2 AM in the neighborhood that Ron was referring to without getting raped? Probably not.
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  • Oly80 wrote...
    yet...
    March 21, 2013 11:31 am
    people are willing to attack you for "blaming the victim" when you say COMMON SENSE things like that, fisher.

    it's insane.

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